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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 03:28

Quote (Matt @ June 10 2008, 08:08)
Is it pedantic to point out that white *is* indeed the whole spectrum! :p

Yes! (Because equally, black is the absence of the whole spectrum! )

It might have been simpler if I'd said that 'it's useless to insist on labelling a colour 'black' or 'white' when one is presented with grey.' But I just liked the colours, Matt!
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 03:40

[quote=Sweetpea,June 10 2008, 06:55][/quote]
A horse is a horse of course of course... :p

Quote
(I thought you were kidding about all the "Twang" stuff! )


Well I have to admit a lot of those album titles even took me by surprise as they flashed up there."The Roaring Twangies." I almost wet myself when that one popped up.And I thought I was going to far with Bridge Over The River Twang.

Alan I think I see where your coming from with your Apache/Cochise comparison there.And that`s a fantastic live version there as well,great stuff.

For people who are maybe unaware of the Peter Gunn theme that Mike "used" for that section of Music From The Balcony I mentioned.There`s a video of it here I was going to link the video with Duane and The Art Of Noise featuring Rik Mayall.But then I stumbled upon this great live tv clip that also features the sax player from Henry Mancini`s band.Looks like they`re having a really good time up there.Anyway that`s it, no more Duane clips I promise..Twang heavens for small mercies.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 05:27

Quote (Sweetpea @ June 10 2008, 06:55)
The Shadows. I don't recall ever hearing their version of "Wonderful Land", and it's lovely, I think. I can sorta see what Sir M (?) meant when he said, elsewhere, that MO's version may have too much going on.

I think I agree with Sir M on this one. Mike's version misses the essential spirit of the music, and in his hands it becomes not much more than a piece of fodder for the 'Oldfield treatment'. The Shadows' version has a dreamy and romantic feeling to it which, although simpler in treatment, is perfectly in keeping with the title.

So I went looking for the original Shadows version (the single release) of Wonderful Land and found it here presented in a context that (despite making me squirm a bit) made me suddenly laugh when I recognised the wooden seat at about 0:50. The two kids in the video are climbing the Malverns - Elgar country! A wonderful land, indeed. That's the top of the Worcester Beacon, there at the end. Mike Oldfield, the Shadows, and Elgar! What a combination to have jiggling about in your brain!
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 06:12

I`ve just noticed on one of those Duane Eddy clips up on youtube he has the legend "King Of Twang" emblazoned on the neck of his guitar.Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Jacko.King Of Pop??..Pah!,,,Hey maybe Mike could get a guitar made up with King Of Bells on it...

Anyway according to Captain Scarlet Spectrum Is Green isn`t it?..Or S.I.G. for short.Good grief if I could only lift myself out of popular culture for five minutes I might actually start understanding stuff.

Seriously though I`m all for people discussing Mike`s work from a more classical perspective.I`d love to think Mike`s work is up there with some of those classical giants it`s just difficult for me to get a whole grip on that from my perspective.I`m also of the opinion that a good deal of Mike`s work is kind of above the pop normality if you like.But at the same time I don`t feel compelled to kind of degenerate pop to attribute that if you like.Nor do I feel compelled to attempt to accurately define exactly what pop is either as a kind of further testament to it.I`m enjoying reading everybody`s take on it here don`t get me wrong.I just think there`s room enough here for all perspectives.

Years ago an old English teacher of mine who went by the name of Mr Spooner appropriatly enough.Was of the opinion that music created by the likes of Mike Oldfield and Vangelis should be banned.Outlawed for the greater good of mankind I think was what he was driving at.You know he`d say this with a kind of little smile on his face but you always got the feeling deep down he might have meant it.Don`t ask me how I knew,but I knew precisely what he meant.I even knew more than I thought I knew if that makes any sense at all???..Anyway imo he was wrong...  :p
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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 06:42

I'm sure I've got lots of interesting things to discuss in this topic, but I've got no idea what they are, if you get my meaning. No idea how the say them anyway. I certainly agree with Alan here. I don't do much comparing of Mike's music with others, but if you're going to do that there doesn't seem any point in limiting comparisons to one style or another. Mike's background may include classical music but it also includes this 'pop' music, and to neglect it is to neglect a vitally important aspect of the music. I feel that after the first four albums Mike's music is closer to the pop world anyway. Tubular Bells still gives me the impression of a bunch of short rock instrumentals stuck together. As much as we'd like to think Mike is up there with the classical composers, the truth is that without his roots in popular music he'd sound nothing like what he does.

By the way, I couldn't let a mention of Mike's Wonderful Land go past. For me the intro (with the two guitars in a duet) is simply breathtaking. Perhaps it does have too much going on; it it stayed with the simplicity of the intro I'd probably like it even more.


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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 06:52

Quote (Alan D @ June 10 2008, 10:27)
Quote (Sweetpea @ June 10 2008, 06:55)
The Shadows. I don't recall ever hearing their version of "Wonderful Land", and it's lovely, I think. I can sorta see what Sir M (?) meant when he said, elsewhere, that MO's version may have too much going on.

I think I agree with Sir M on this one. Mike's version misses the essential spirit of the music, and in his hands it becomes not much more than a piece of fodder for the 'Oldfield treatment'. The Shadows' version has a dreamy and romantic feeling to it which, although simpler in treatment, is perfectly in keeping with the title.

So I went looking for the original Shadows version (the single release) of Wonderful Land and found it here presented in a context that (despite making me squirm a bit) made me suddenly laugh when I recognised the wooden seat at about 0:50. The two kids in the video are climbing the Malverns - Elgar country! A wonderful land, indeed. That's the top of the Worcester Beacon, there at the end. Mike Oldfield, the Shadows, and Elgar! What a combination to have jiggling about in your brain!

The opening of Mike Oldfield`s version of Wonderful Land has had me very close to tears on a number occasions I have to say.But The Shadows version just kind of gives me little joyous shivers right the way through it.So I suppose yes I`d have to concede The Shadows version is maybe the greater of the two for me as well.So where is this Wonderful Land one wonders?..Here`s a little piece below I read a little while ago.Lifted from a site about Jerry Lordan who composed the track all those years ago...

An even bigger hit came with 'Wonderful land' - although it was originally entitled 'Genesis' until someone remarked that the track was reminiscent of America, at which point someone - no-one knows who - remarked that America was a "wonderful land". Part of the success - another million seller, spending nine weeks at no.1 - must be attributed to Norrie Paramor's string arrangement. Jerry's melody had been a long time in gestation, though

"... in '61, I started ... the main theme of what came to be known later as 'Wonderful land' which I was knocked out with, but I could not get the middle. I could not get the middle, and I used to try it occasionally and it went on months and months. I suppose about six months later in a flash, I got the middle and it was complete.

" I went down and played it to the Shadows, who were rehearsing in a little studio off Charing Cross Road, they were knocked out. [The] recording was made but it lacked something and it was sort of shelved, and then Tony Meehan suggested that the ideal thing might be, as a nice contrast, using Hank's lead guitar, electric guitar, but with big string orchestra behind, and Norrie Paramor agreed.

"Norrie Paramor did the string arrangement, an excellent one, very sympathetic, and one day I got a 'phone call from the Shadows manager ... Peter Gormley, to come down and listen to this track, because Peter didn't know - as many people didn't - whether it was a hit or not. He said in his Australian accent 'I like the play of this, Jerry, tell me what you think ...' So he played it and I said 'A hit, Peter? It's a number one' I said 'It's fantastic'. He said 'Do you really think so?' I said 'Yes, I bloody know so!' So he said ' Well, yes, alright.' I still get the impression it was sort of put out reluctantly."


So there you go.Back in the wild wild west once again right where we started in fact..Heh heh pretty neat huh?
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 06:56

[quote=raven4x4x,June 10 2008, 11:42][/quote]
Quote
By the way, I couldn't let a mention of Mike's Wonderful Land go past. For me the intro (with the two guitars in a duet) is simply breathtaking.


And there you go blimey!..We must`ve been thinking about the exact same thing at almost the same time..Except you beat me to it...   :(     ;)
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 08:08

My comments were just general guidelines, Alan. It's always possible to find exceptions. The Wittgenstein point didn't really fit with the comment you quoted - I agree there - but more with an earlier post you made, which gave the impression you believed that because the categories "pop" and "classical" didn't have sharp edges they were meaningless. If you didn't mean to imply this, my apologies.

As for "Four Winds", I found the piece a bit too obvious in what it was trying to do. In fact, the only piece I think is really good on Guitarsis "Summit Day". No doubt Mike was saving all his best pieces for The Millennium Bell (provocative remark of the day!;)
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 08:20

Quote (Alan D @ June 10 2008, 05:27)
I think I agree with Sir M on this one. Mike's version misses the essential spirit of the music, and in his hands it becomes not much more than a piece of fodder for the 'Oldfield treatment'. The Shadows' version has a dreamy and romantic feeling to it which, although simpler in treatment, is perfectly in keeping with the title.

Thanks for posting this. As usual, I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say that I far prefer Mike's version to The Shadows'. To me, the Shadows' version is too smooth-flowing, serene: with Mike's, there are those long, drawn-out notes, full of yearning, full of the possibility of imminent lack and silence. In The Shadows' version, the wonderful land will always be there, unchanging; in Mike's, the wonderful land could be lost any moment, and it would be heart-rending.
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 08:51

If I may backtrack in the discussion a tad...

I don't feel that mentioning players like Duane Eddy or Hank Marvin is denigrating Mike - in fact, in the context of something like Four Winds, I think it's essential. The thing that really makes the 'West' part sound at all western is the way it uses that twangy 'western' guitar sound, which I would say is a reference to the spaghetti western sound, which I'd in turn suggest was probably influenced by Duane Eddy. I suppose that's sort of just another way of saying what Alan said earlier with his Cochise/Apache Elgar/Wagner post.

Angie/Anji, by the way, is seen with both spellings, depending on whose version it is. Davey Graham's original version was called Angie, but Bert Jansch decided to call his version Anji because he'd altered it. Paul Simon learnt it from Bert Jansch, so his version is more Anji than Angie! I have my own version which is different again, which I should perhaps call Antschee or something...
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 11:03

Quote (Korgscrew @ June 10 2008, 13:51)
Angie/Anji, by the way, is seen with both spellings, depending on whose version it is. Davey Graham's original version was called Angie, but Bert Jansch decided to call his version Anji because he'd altered it.

The whole thing is a spellchecker's nightmare! Angie/Anji and Davey/Davy!!
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 11:35

Quote (nightspore @ June 10 2008, 13:08)
an earlier post you made, which gave the impression you believed that because the categories "pop" and "classical" didn't have sharp edges they were meaningless. If you didn't mean to imply this, my apologies.

Don't apologise! You got an awfully interesting discussion going here, in which there are bound to be a few tangled threads from the very nature of it.

On the 'Wonderful Land' issue - I agree with both you and Alex that it starts magnificently, full, indeed, of yearning. If we were talking only about the first minute and a half, then yes, in the contest of Oldfield versus Marvin, Oldfield wins. But then at 1:40 he suddenly throws a whole parcelful of 'Oldfieldness' at it and turns the thing into a barrel-organ tune. It just falls apart for me at that point, and I can't take it seriously.

So I don't think it coheres as a work of art, if you like. The Shadows may not reach the momentary heights that Mike does, but nevertheless they do deliver a unified piece of art. Which we choose seems to be very much a matter of personal taste: Mike Oldfield for those who want glimpses of Paradise from the mountain-top but don't mind a barrel-organ playing in the background; or the Shadows for those who would settle for a less dizzy height but still enjoy a rather fine view in peace and quiet.
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 13:49

Quote (nightspore @ June 10 2008, 08:20)
To me, the Shadows' version is too smooth-flowing, serene: with Mike's, there are those long, drawn-out notes, full of yearning, full of the possibility of imminent lack and silence. In The Shadows' version, the wonderful land will always be there, unchanging; in Mike's, the wonderful land could be lost any moment, and it would be heart-rending.

Too smooth-flowing and serene? Possibly, but I think Mike beats it, in that category, with "Jungle Gardenia". Which, btw, also has a bit of 'twang', doesn't it? I always thought it had a kind of fifties-pop sound to it, anyway. And as I like smooth and serene, it's all good for me. I hadn't thought about it before, but I agree that Mike's "Wonderful Land" is more emotionally involving. It conveys fragility and hopefulness, I think, which I don't get much from The Shadows' version. So, I don't know which I prefer, I just know I enjoy both.

Quote (nightspore @ June 10 2008, 08:08)
As for "Four Winds", I found the piece a bit too obvious in what it was trying to do.

Do you mean you think there should be more subtle delineation between the winds? Or that the sound choices are cliches? Or that the four-section structure is unimaginative?


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 15:03

My personal gripe with Four Winds is that, musically, it's just four juxtaposed bits; there's precisely no interaction between the pieces, which is what would make the song rise above being just a conceptual piece. Being just a conceptual piece, in an album that has no concept of that kind, it ends up sounding like an excuse to put four otherwise useless ideas on an album - and that's a problem because I don't think that's the case.

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nightspore Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 20:22

Quote (Alan D @ June 10 2008, 11:35)
On the 'Wonderful Land' issue - I agree with both you and Alex that it starts magnificently, full, indeed, of yearning. If we were talking only about the first minute and a half, then yes, in the contest of Oldfield versus Marvin, Oldfield wins. But then at 1:40 he suddenly throws a whole parcelful of 'Oldfieldness' at it and turns the thing into a barrel-organ tune. It just falls apart for me at that point, and I can't take it seriously.

So I don't think it coheres as a work of art, if you like.

Actually, I can see where you're coming from, here; my remarks were mainly directed at the initial minute and a half. However, I see the "barrel organ" section as a resolution of the previous tensions, a happy ending for the crisis that could have been, in the same way that the sestet of a Petrarchan sonnet resolves the conflicts in the octave or two quatrains. So to me the piece has unity, although it is the first minute and a half that most engages me emotionally.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 20:24

And in that Mike's piece possesses this added texture, this added contrast, I think it is richer than the Shadows' in this way as well.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: June 10 2008, 20:34

Quote (Sweetpea @ June 10 2008, 13:49)
Too smooth-flowing and serene? Possibly, but I think Mike beats it, in that category, with "Jungle Gardenia". Which, btw, also has a bit of 'twang', doesn't it?


Do you mean you think there should be more subtle delineation between the winds? Or that the sound choices are cliches? Or that the four-section structure is unimaginative?

Actually the high-reaching guitar theme in "Jungle Gardenia" makes me think more of some of the elevated spiky creepers in the rainforests near Cairns rather than gardenias (especially given the careful, plodding rhythm suggestive of the way of proceeding through rainforests!;)

With regard to your questions about "Winds", I answer "yes" to all of them. I also agree with Sir M that the pieces (they're hardly "songs") need to talk to one another, the way themes are reprised in, eg, TB2.
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: June 12 2008, 02:41

Quote (nightspore @ June 10 2008, 20:22)
...in the same way that the sestet of a Petrarchan sonnet resolves the conflicts in the octave or two quatrains.

LOL. I was trying really hard to follow this fascinating discussion but now I throw up my hands in defeat! Grrr, why didn't I pay more attention in my 7th grade "Introduction to Music" class??

And "barrel organ", Alan?? *shakes fist* I'll 'barrel organ' you! I think I'll indulge in a marathon of "Wonderful Land" (Mike's version, of course), to be followed by a plethora of pipsqueaky tunes, just to flout you.

I'm pretty sure I wanted to smite Sir M for some reason or other (probably for something he said about Ommadawn), but I can't remember what. And it wouldn't belong here, anyway. I just figured I'd get all my contentiousness out at once so I can go back to my normal agreeable state.


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 12 2008, 04:04

Quote (Sweetpea @ June 12 2008, 07:41)
And "barrel organ", Alan?? *shakes fist* I'll 'barrel organ' you! I think I'll indulge in a marathon of "Wonderful Land" (Mike's version, of course), to be followed by a plethora of pipsqueaky tunes, just to flout you.

OK. I consider myself duly barrel-organed and pipsqueaked. It was a painful process, but I emerged from it a better and wiser person.

I used to keep a Petrarchan sonnet, myself, but the two quatrains were always so quarrelsome that the sestet could never even begin to settle their fights and it was very wearing on the nerves (not to mention the carpets). So I got a goldfish instead.
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Alan D Offline




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Posted: June 12 2008, 04:27

The Petrarchan Sonnet
or, how Supersestet saved the day

(For Sweetpea)


And so it happed, that on a day
A bunch of words were gathered round
To make a sonnet - kick some verse
Into a rhyme. There came a sound
Of fighting. Jaws were dropped. "Oh no!"
The cry was heard. "There's conflict here
To be resolved, and all's not well!
This octave's full of doubt and fear!"

Then came a mighty sound, and from
The sky swept down a hero bold.
"It's Supersestet" went the cry,
"He'll fix it!" So, the story's told.
The Sestet settled every fight.
And now I wish you all, "Goodnight."
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