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Question: Favourite Discovery Track :: Total Votes:87
Poll choices Votes Statistics
To France 13  [14.94%]
Poison Arrows 11  [12.64%]
Crystal Gazing 2  [2.30%]
Saved by a bell 7  [8.05%]
Talk about your life 6  [6.90%]
The Lake 33  [37.93%]
Discovery 6  [6.90%]
Tricks of the light 9  [10.34%]
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Topic: Favourite Discovery Track, Choose< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
EeToN Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 20:28

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 15 2005, 20:00)
it's the intention behind those cheap tricks

Who cares about the intention? I always liked the recurrence of that melody.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 20:40

Quote (Korgscrew @ April 15 2005, 18:34)
We were talking about labels, standard classifications, genres. If you want to make a standard, genre fitting pop album, it won't have a long instrumental track on it, because that's just not what the pop genre's about. In having a long instrumental track, Discovery deviates from the pop genre (and that's not the only way it deviates...).

Well, The Beatles' self titled "White Album" has "Revolution 9" on it, and it's still considered a pop album. A "Pop album" isn't such a strict thing, you know.

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Why put the To France melody in Talk About Your Life? Well hey, why not? Same thing as quoting parts of Taurus II in Orabidoo and Five Miles Out. It never sounded amateurish to me


Well, it never did to me, either. But in Discovery, it sure does. The quotation is there, lonely, marooned, injustified, lost in an ocean of good pop music. In Five Miles Out it worked, because that's not a pop album.

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That was perfect, but there had to be the To France melody there to make the "cohesion" show. Why?

Why not?

Well, why bother?

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Are you saying that he was doing it to appeal to a broader audience, but put the "(instrumental)" label on The Lake as a warning?


Exactly. Maybe it wasn't Mike's initiative, but it sure as HELL sounds like that.

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I don't even consider most of them 'songs', really. I see them as pieces of a long instrumental with lyrics inserted at certain areas.


A ha. That's just the kind of trick that Mike was trying to play with his songs. But to me, that kind of thing sounds contrived as hey. It doesn't feel natural. Just because the trick worked in many albums in the 70's doesn't mean it will work in any pop album. Maybe that was Mike really trying to fight the "mainstream" and trying to remain "himself", but I think Discovery would be much more natural without that "cohesion" stuff. Then, I'd be able to enjoy it for what it is: a pop album, with a 12-minute track at the end to please the "hardcore" fans.

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Poison Arrows is a good example...it starts out quiet and slower paced while Barry is singing some lyrics and as it builds and builds he stops singing and Mike goes on a big guitar solo the first time the song is actually becomes loud, and then it goes back to his singing again. It sounds more (to me) like the structure of an instrumental than an actual song.


Hmm... I'm not too sure on that. Pop, as a genre, leaves a lot of space for experimentation, you know, and I don't think that starting quiet, getting loud and going quiet again is such an "alien" thing. Surely many bands did that before. I can't mention names here, but I'm sure of that. Say, see how many wacky, unbelievable chord changes and harmonies the Beatles were doing in "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and its brothers, and those songs are no more than excellent pop.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 20:41

Quote (EeToN @ April 15 2005, 20:28)
Who cares about the intention?

Oh, I do care, don't mind me. Sometimes, the intention behind a song is even more important than the melody.

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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 21:26

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 16 2005, 09:41)
Oh, I do care, don't mind me. Sometimes, the intention behind a song is even more important than the melody.


Now it sounds like you're desperately searching for reasons to dislike the track. How are any of us supposed to know why Mike put those recurring themes in? Judging the track based on your guess of what he wanted to do, often an extremely cynical and uncharitable one, seems quite unfair. I listen to the music, not the intention behind it. Amarok and Heaven's Open were designed to annoy Virgin, which seems a quite childish and immature act to me, but that doesn't enter my head when I listen to the music, and I don't let it affect my enjoyment.


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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 21:58

Finally found the dictionary definition of pop: "n : music of general appeal to teenagers; a bland watered-down version of rock'n'roll with more rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love [syn: pop]"

Bland and watered down? If it was pop, it wouldn't be Oldfield. I would not use that description for any of Discovery's tracks.


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Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 22:47

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 16 2005, 01:40)
A "Pop album" isn't such a strict thing, you know.

On the one hand you say that a pop album isn't such a strict thing, but on the other you say that Mike shouldn't be doing all these joining 'tricks' because it's a pop album. I think you've caught yourself in your own trap...
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EeToN Offline




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Posted: April 15 2005, 22:53

Quote (hiawatha @ April 16 2005, 03:58)
dictionary definition of pop

And what is the difference between fruits and vegetables? I don't know, I just feel the common properties somehow.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 13:16

Quote (raven4x4x @ April 15 2005, 21:26)
Now it sounds like you're desperately searching for reasons to dislike the track. How are any of us supposed to know why Mike put those recurring themes in? Judging the track based on your guess of what he wanted to do, often an extremely cynical and uncharitable one, seems quite unfair.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I don't care. It's my taste, and I don't think I'm harming anyone, am I? Only if God in person descend from the skies and tells me that, without the quotation, the album would be a piece of crap, maybe I'll change my mind. I'm not being cynical, I'm just being true to myself and my feelings.

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"n : music of general appeal to teenagers; a bland watered-down version of rock'n'roll with more rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love [syn: pop]"


That seems to be more a definition of SOFT ROCK (e.g. Air Supply and its lookalikes) than Pop. And also, doesn't the bit in italics seem to contradict the underlined one? Watered down rock'n'roll with more rhythm? Don't get it. That definition is unlike anything I've ever seen. To me, pop was always primarily about structure: verse/chorus/verse/chorus/solo/chorus etc. And all songs on Discovery fit that.

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On the one hand you say that a pop album isn't such a strict thing, but on the other you say that Mike shouldn't be doing all these joining 'tricks' because it's a pop album. I think you've caught yourself in your own trap...


Not at all. Exactly because a pop album is loose and uncompromised, those "linking" tricks sound contrived, as if trying to mask the real face of the album. I'm just repeating what I already said, here.


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Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com
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Korgscrew Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 14:11

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 16 2005, 18:16)
Exactly because a pop album is loose and uncompromised, those "linking" tricks sound contrived, as if trying to mask the real face of the album.

But you didn't say loose and uncompromised...the sense of what you said was that a pop album can be any number of things (or that any number of things can be a pop album). If it can be any number of things, it can have no single true face (the idea of a single archetypal pop album was exactly what I was trying to put across when talking about the 'standard, genre-fitting pop album' - you argued against that, saying that it couldn't be defined in such fixed terms).

End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned, this is starting to go round in irrelevant little circles. Everything's been said - you don't think the linking on Discovery works, I do. We've made our points, and ought to move on before this gets hammered too far into the ground.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 17:32

Ok, I also think it's time to stop before I start chasing my own tail. I just have to say, I didn't care for the quotation at all, but now, I'm a little biased against it - not because of the quotation itself, but because it feeds a certain anti-pop attitude some Oldfield fans have. I go there and say "well, those seven tracks on Discovery are really a sequence of pop songs," and then someone gets horrified: "No! They're not pop songs, not at all! They... are really instrumentals, with a bit of lyrics on top. See, there's even a link on the beginning of side B, going back to side A. This is an instrumental, just like Ommadawn." Not intending to attack or make fun of anyone here! It's just that some people refuse to accept Mike Oldfield as anything other than an instrumental compositor - and in my view, instead of showing his power and talent as a pop musician, Discovery works the opposite way.
To give you an example, I'll always think that Talking Heads were far more honest when they decided to put out a pop album once and for all: they just went on studio, recorded several pop songs, and to the hell with everything. They weren't pretending to be a band that they weren't anymore. Even though Little Creatures is an inferior album to Discovery, in my opinion, they were quite bold doing that. Mike Oldfield didn't seem willing to adapt to a new kind of musicmaking, which is a flaw, in my opinion. But still, quotation or no quotation, Discovery is a solid, very enjoyable Mike Oldfield album. His identity is all over it, as well as the talent in writing melodies. I hope nobody here started to think I dislike the album or the song because of all this. "Talk About Your Life" is very beautiful, in fact, probably one of the best in there.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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Ratty Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 17:44

Its been like watching a boxing match between a couple of heavyweights. Youve gone the distance, cant give any more...After 15 rounds..the judges score it a draw!! Great entertainment   :)

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The tolling of the iron bell
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: April 16 2005, 18:46

Which one ended up with their ear bitten off somewhere around the time of the the 6th round?

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"In the land of the Dacotahs,
Where the Falls of Minnehaha
Flash and gleam among the oak-trees,
Laugh and leap into the valley."
- Song of Hiawatha
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arron11196 Offline




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Posted: May 18 2005, 06:25

Which ever one was h-earing and not listening. There's a difference.

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Arron J Eagling

Everyone's interpretation is different, and everyone has a right to that opinion. There is no "right" one, I am adding this post to communicate my thoughts to share them with like-minded souls who will be able to comment in good nature.

(insert the last 5 mins of Crises here)
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Baggiesfaninessex Offline




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Posted: May 20 2005, 14:10

Quote (Ratty @ April 16 2005, 17:44)
Its been like watching a boxing match between a couple of heavyweights. Youve gone the distance, cant give any more...After 15 rounds..the judges score it a draw!! Great entertainment   :)

This board needs debate like this. It's fantastic to follow and I see albums in a whole different light once the differing opinions of many contributors have been digested.

Great stuff!  :)

PS I haven't played Discovery for years as I only have it on vinyl yet I feel as though I'm really missing out. Time to blow the dust off another 33rpm.


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BTH Offline




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Posted: Dec. 14 2005, 21:01

Talk About Your Life is my favourite song on Discovery - thats not to say it's the best though because To France is fairly unsurpassable....
However Talk About... is by far the most subtle and truly emotional track on the album - very sparse and spacious in places as opposed to the more densely layered quality of most of the other pieces. Its so uplifting when the "To France" riff kicks in! I always look forward to hearing Talk about Your Life when I put on Discovery...
BTW The Lake is absolutely magnificent as well, especially the final sections.


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Jan. 19 2018, 22:03

Another vote that I realised I had never made... My choice was "Saved by a Bell". I was watching a video of it on youtube and was very impressed.
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75 replies since Jan. 16 2004, 19:35 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

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