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Topic: Earth Moving is not that bad..., ...it's just a pop album.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 05:10

Quote (raven4x4x @ Feb. 01 2005, 00:55)
So an A- isn't that good?? My word you're harsh.  ;)  And I take it your attitude to this album has improved since you wrote your review on your site.

A- is "good", but when an album's best songs are only A- worthy, the album doesn't tend to be exceptional. In Earth Moving's case, Holy gets an A+ from me, but that only increases the contrast.

The Pop thing, I guess it got a "bad" meaning when people in the 70's would listen to their beloved Prog artists, and when suddenly a band like Yes made a song like 'Wonderous Stories', they would scowl and them and say "you lowly simpletons made a POP song? Burn in Hell!". I've always used "pop" to define music that's just more simple in its approach. The case is to define GOOD pop (The Beatles) and BAD pop (Britneys and the like).


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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 05:19

Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 31 2005, 16:11)
What I meant was that I don't know how to respond, when two sets of criteria about what makes a good song are so completely different - as mine and Sir M's clearly are in this case. There seemed to be too much ground to cover before we could make any headway.


Perhaps that's the case, but not necessarily. I maintain that it's the emotion or feeling transmitted through the music and words of a song that determines how much you like it. I know you feel the same way Alan, and I'm pretty sure Sir M does too. However, this is a subjective thing: the emotion in a piece of music depends on the listener. So while it's quite possable that both Alan and Sir M demand feeling in a song, Alan could easily find feeling that Sir M doesn't. I hope I'm not blabbing on about nothing here.  :)

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Jan. 31 2005, 17:10)
I've always used "pop" to define music that's just more simple in its approach.


That's quite right. And simple does not necessarily mean bad. Not at all.


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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 07:08

Quote (raven4x4x @ Feb. 01 2005, 00:55)
I strongly disagree. What 'pop' means now may be quality-free to you, but i feel it's unfair to condemn a whole genre like that. I agree with you that most pop around nowadays is close to quality-free, but pop songs are not automatically bad. What about Mike's songs during the 70s? Surely some of those have to be considered pop songs?

I don't even consider it to be a genre. Just a sub-genre of rock almost defined by its low quality.

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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 08:03

I think Earth Moving is Mikes best album with songs on it and the least commercially pop sounding of them all. 'Islands', that is commercial pop CRAP, and I don't like Pictures in the Dark or Moonlight Shadow or Man in the Rain or To Be Free. The only MO songs I enjoy are some of the songs on Earth Moving and Barry Palmers songs on Crises and Discovery, you can't call them pop songs really, not in the derogatory sense, they are too intricate. And I don't think simple pop means bad songs, the Beatles are a classic example of excellent simple tunes. To me 'POP' means sweet and fizzy like soft drink, yeh I know it's short for popular, but most quality artists don't like to be called pop stars. Although I still think the majority of Mikes songs are POP songs, intricate or not. I've just added that comment in and I know it sounds contradictory, I think what I mean is, for me, it's about having some guts, not something you play to put the kiddies to bed with. I don't like the light stuff, POP.

Far Country is not only my favourite MO track, it is my favourite song ever. The quality is undeniable, no matter what you like or don't like. You could say, it's not my favourite, or I like another song better, but no-one could call it crap! As you can with so many of Mikes others songs, like Innocent.  Pictures in the Dark is for old ladies sitting in their armchairs doing their crocheting. Not cool!


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raven4x4x Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 08:09

Barry Palmer wasn't on Crises. I assume you're refering to Shadow on the Wall? That was sung by Roger Chapman.

You're right that many of Mike's songs can be quite intricate, especially the earlier 80s ones with guitar solos, Simon Phillips drum parts etc. Certainly no simpler than pieces such as In Dulci Jubilo.


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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 08:19

Ooh No, I hate Shadow on the Wall. I thought Barry sung Crises but guess not, was it Mike? or someone else? Did Barry only sing on Discovery? Sorry about that. Back to EM.

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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 08:47

Shadow On The Wall is sung by Roger Chapman, singer of Family.

Reading your previous post, I'm sorry to say that I absolutely disagree with 90% of what you said. I hate to sound like that, but it's true. Earth Moving was a 110% commercial album, it was the album Mike did for Virgin, aiming commercial success. Even Islands wasn't as commercial as that. The thing is that in Earth Moving, Mike switched on the "Sell-out" button to keep Virgin content, but he had always been writing pop songs through the 80's. All those songs in Discovery, Crises and Islands, Barry or no Barry, can be as intricate as they might be, but they're still pop: in structure, in essence, in length, in sound and everything else. Many pop songs are extremely intricate, but they're still pop. And there's nothing wrong with that, I say.

And now, here comes the part I can't understand... You say his best songs are the most intricate ones, but you flame 'Pictures In The Dark'? Why? And you flame 'Innocent', which is on Earth Moving. Are you confusing the song/album titles and I'm not getting you?


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Alan D Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 10:32

Quote (raven4x4x @ Feb. 01 2005, 10:19)
while it's quite possible that both Alan and Sir M demand feeling in a song, Alan could easily find feeling that Sir M doesn't. I hope I'm not blabbing on about nothing here.  :)

No, you're not. But the reason for my silence (though this post's existence suggests my silence is purely hypothetical! ) is that I'd describe 'Far Country' as a visionary song. It has the capability of taking me somewhere - showing me something - that seems to me to be beyond what I'd normally expect a song could do. In fact I can't actually think of ANY other song that has this quality.

Now I can't justify that in any sense that could be resolved by discussion or rational argument. All I can say is... the song takes me there. I've seen something amazing. That's why I elevate Far Country so much. I think visionary art always tends to pose this problem. Take someone like William Blake. Judged as 'ordinary' art, many of his pictures are merely curious/interesting/odd - nothing special about them aesthetically. You'd grade them A-, perhaps! But if you really make contact with the underlying vision, they become transcendent in such a way as to make any grading system seem absurd.

Similarly with 'Far Country', for me.
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hiawatha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 11:14

Discussing "Earth Moving" is always a sensitive topic. A flamewar about it was the "straw that broke the camels back" and caused them to remove the forum at www.mikeoldfield.com

As for my lower rating for "Far Country", the song just does not send me like it does others. I see nothing wrong with it (nothing to complain about), and it is his best example of lyrics that I can think of at the moment. It is just that "Bridge to Paradise" is my favorite song from EM.

I sure wish the Fish vocals had made it to the final version of EM.


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TubularBelle Offline




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Posted: Feb. 01 2005, 17:58

@ Sir Mustapha,

Obviously I knew I would offend many by saying I didn't like Pictures in the Dark and I apologise and it is obvious a great deal of effort was put into making it which explains why so many like it, and why I didn't call it crap, but I just think it is old ladies music, with a little boy singing falsetto? It doesn't do anything for me. I like to think of Mike as cool and of my taste in music as cool and that song IMHO is not cool. I'm not saying it's not a good song. But I don't listen to Mozart either.

I still don't see Earth Moving as being any more commercial than other album Mike has done with songs on it, (except for the fact that it is ALL songs, like HO, and we all know he was desperate to get out then, he didn't even bother to hire vocalists. Surely HO fits more into that category that you refer to). I think Mike is not a real fan of writing songs and only does it to sell albums, ever since Incantations, back when the Sex Pistols came on the scene, Mike wanted to be released from his Virgin contract and I think you could describe every album from Platinum to Heavens Open (except for Amarok) in a similar way that you have described his reasons for doing EM. When I spoke about Islands, I was definitely only referring to the song, not the whole album. I love all the instrumental pieces on all of Mikes albums, I don't listen to the shorter ones as much because I lose interest when a song comes on. I need to put them all together.

I completely respect our differing tastes Musty as I hope you do and I am sorry that I was so blunt. I don't know how old you are or how long you have been a fan but I can safely guess that you are not female and have not been a fan as long as I have (since 73). Women tend to listen to music on an emotional level and not a technical level and in all my years of listening to Mike I have not really considered the intricasy of the work, just the emotion of it, even though the two tend to go hand in hand. I listen to rock music and when I change over to Mike I don't want to be going, gee that sucks, or that sounds dated, I want the same thrill I get from something written just last year and I want the advantage of  modern trends and styles in music. Thats why I love Mikes instrumental music so much, because he was so ahead of his time and it doesn't date, but the songs do. Except for Far Country.

I really don't understand how everyone doesn't feel the same way about Far Country as Alan, Raven and I do. I have no doubt that Mike wouldn't list it as his favourite, because Moonlight Shadow and Man in the Rain esp have special meaning for him. But it sends me somewhere, it really does. I do think some of the songs on EM aren't great, ie: Innocent, I don't like girly high pitched vocals as a general rule either.

But getting back to the point, if you were not armed with the information that you have, ie: Mike not wanting to do EM in the first place, and you had never heard of Mike before and were handed a bunch of his albums to listen to, inc EM, (similar to the suggestion of changing the name of the artist)then I do not believe that an average person listening in a non-technical manner but purely for pleasure, would single EM out as being the only crap one.

Tracy.


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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Feb. 03 2005, 05:27

Of course, you were talking about 'Islands' the SONG, not the album. That explains something, already. Silly me. In fact, the song 'Islands' is definitely commercial and somewhat crap, in a way (in my opinion, of course). But I still see Earth Moving as a heavily flawed album. And when I take out an album to listen to, I always listen to it in several ways, with attention to several aspects. And I let myself open to both the technical aspects and the emotional aspects (that are heavily subjective, of course), so there isn't the problem of me just analysing the song "technically". If I'm really not in love with a song, it's because it just isn't for me, or maybe it's a difficult song that hasn't worked all its way into my mind - but in that case, I wouldn't have a strong opinion of it. I have tried Earth Moving already, several times, and what I can see is that the overal picture isn't too attractive to me, and also that it must not be too attractive to much people. Of course the album has its fans, but the Mike Oldfield community in general turns it down (for a number of reasons), and also it hasn't fared too well in the charts. Remember that 'Moonlight Shadow' was (and still is) very successful. And believe me, it's no coincidence that I see 'Moonlight Shadow' as largely superior to most tracks in Earth Moving. Not just because I like it better, but I see lots of things that make it a better song: the natural dreamy sound, the catchy melody, Maggie Reilly's performance, the beat, the guitar, and even the lyrics. Earth Moving's songs are way too thinny and synthetic (like a Casio keyboard on auto-pilot), the melodies are quite cliché, and most vocalists are that kind of hysterical over-the-top performers that make a song be immediately identifiable as "80's" to many people. Just see Max Bacon trying to turn into Freddie Mercury in 'Hostage'. But then, like I said, these songs have their fans. 'Far Country' takes many people "there" (like you, Alan, Raven, etc.), and that's natural. If it didn't take me there, it's just because it isn't quite "my" song. Many others take me to places. I could make a list, but I'm not in that particular mindset at the moment. 'Far Country' just wasn't made for me. And that's far different from what I feel for 'Earth Moving', for example, which I consider a genuinely bad song. 'Far Country' is good and I like it.

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amarokian Offline




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Posted: Feb. 23 2005, 03:29

Quote (Ugo @ Jan. 29 2003, 01:21)
I'm getting sick and tired of people saying that Earth Moving is the worst album Mike made.

Feel free to add me too at your angry list,because it is IMHO the worst Mike Oldfield has produced.Pop album does not fit at all with what the concept of Mike's first and the last decade was.His anything else but a pop musician :(  :( .

  I know that the Discovery-Earth Moving-Heaven's Open period was a little sloppy,but this album I cannot stand at all.


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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: July 09 2007, 14:45

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Feb. 01 2005, 05:10)
A- is "good", but when an album's best songs are only A- worthy, the album doesn't tend to be exceptional.

I find that equation odd. Perhaps this is due to differences of in-school grading? In my experience, this is how 'A-E' works:

A = Excellent
B = Good
C = Average
D = Below Average
E = (or 'F') Failure

I've only just listened to Earth Moving for the first time. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I've been replaying "Innocent" over and over. And I was pleased to see the presence of Adrian Belew. Hmmm... how about an entire album of Oldfield & Belew? While I'm on the subject, I was disappointed with Belew's Guitar as Orchestra from 1995. Interesting to see how different Belew's guitar project was from Oldfield's Guitars which came out several years after. I found Oldfield's to be much more melodic and listenable.


ETA

Forgot to mention that the topic title - "Earth Moving is not that bad..." - made me chuckle.


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Travellerman Offline




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Posted: July 10 2007, 12:17

Actually I'm a big fan of the first 4 albums, but Earth Moving really does it for me. It's obviously totally different but I love to listen to this album very loudly on the iPod!

:laugh:
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larstangmark Offline




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Posted: July 10 2007, 16:24

In the years 1979-1989 Mike was keen to keep up what was fashionable in music and he let that slip into his music to some extent. I think the problem with Earth Moving is also the problem of the year 1989. Music in general - and especially rock music - was shit. Songs like Hostage or Earth Moving are the kind of middle-of-the-road over-produced politically correct pop-rock that dominated the charts in 1989.
Just to make a comparision; Discovery (the song) was influenced by how typical commercial mid-tempo hard-rock songs sounded in 1984 But rock-music in general was in better shape in 1984 than in 1989. That's why Earth Moving is such a hard listen to me; I truly loathe the year 1989.

Apart from that I really enjoy Innocent (really!;) and Bridge to Paradise. Blue Night is OK also. But those others...  :/


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trcanberra Offline




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Posted: Feb. 15 2008, 22:56

Quote (PICTURES IN THE DARK @ Jan. 16 2004, 19:46)
I like Earth Moving. And I'm also starting to get sick of all the negative things that people say about it. If a Oldfield album is not instrumental, it doesn't mean that it's a bad album. Besides, Earth Moving has some really beautiful songs (BLUE NIGHT, Holy, Far country...)

I thinks lots of folks are just saying it is not one of their favourites. and not just because it is lacking a long instrumental track.

I just listened for the first time today with an open mind.  For me, it was OK, but I did not like the songs as much as, say, the ones on Discovery.  I REALLY liked Far Country though, reflecting some others here, plus Innocent (apart from some of the dodgy lyrics).

As far as my personal Mike favourites go, this is close to bottom of the list, though still worth an occasional listen (I still have another half - dozen or so CDs to catch up with though).
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Delfín Offline




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Posted: Aug. 24 2010, 11:19

Quote (Ugo @ Jan. 29 2003, 00:21)
(...) with the name of a fantasy band on it [Do any of you remember the Traveling Wilburies? ;)] ? IMHO, radios would have started playing this very good pop album by this new up-and-coming band, but then people would have heard the unmistakable sound of THAT guitar and they would have thought: hey, but that's Mike Oldfield playing in this. And the album would've been a huge hit. (...)

'Earth Moving' by The unmistakeable NOTHING BUTTS!!!!!!


Sir Mustapha, very interesting review although I basically disagree as I like both the 'Earth Moving' song and album.


Tubularbelle, i disagree with you as well about 'Pictures in the Dark', and I think the Aled Jones part was really original and for all ages rather than old people only. I really think if 'Pictures in the Dark' would have been included in 'Earth Moving' it would have turned it to an earthquake.


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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Feb. 03 2011, 23:59

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Jan. 31 2005, 11:07)
If I were to grade the songs in Earth Moving, it would be kind of like this:

Holy (A+)
Hostage (C-)
Far Country (A-)
Innocent (C+)
Runaway Son (A-)
See The Light (B-)
Earth Moving (C)
Blue Night (B+)
Nothing But (B-)
Bridge To Paradise (A-)

So, the good-to-bad ratio here is pretty much 50/50, which I consider fairly mediocre, mostly because the good songs aren't that good (except for Holy).

For the fans of Far Country and Holy here, have you heard King Crimson's "Matte Kudasai"? Now there's a fantastic ballad, and a great place to check Adrian Belew's singing and guitar playing.

I've only just noticed this thread. I agree with Sir M's "A"s, except I'd give "Innocent" one as well, as I like it, even though - like candy floss - I know I shouldn't! I'd nudge "Hostage" up to a B+ as I find it amusing to imagine a person in such as state as is described in the song. "Bridge to Paradise" would be down a notch too, as it's simply not among my favourites. "Earth Moving" must have the most "industrial" drumming in Mike's catalogue!

"Runaway Son" is still my favourite.  ;)
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Milamber Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2011, 05:31

Quote (nightspore @ Feb. 04 2011, 15:59)
"Runaway Son" is still my favourite.  ;)

Thats Syd B right  :laugh:
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Feb. 04 2011, 06:19

Quote (milamber @ Feb. 04 2011, 05:31)
Quote (nightspore @ Feb. 04 2011, 15:59)
"Runaway Son" is still my favourite.  ;)

Thats Syd B right  :laugh:

I'm sure Syd never wasted his "substance" in riotous living!  :laugh:
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