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_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 29 2006, 20:51 If you start looking for esoteric hints in Mike's music you'll be surprised to find them in his entire discography, including in his videos. So be prepare to "open" your eyes. Fist of all let's read the meaning of esoteric. "Esoteric" was the adjective applied in ancient Greece to any doctrine according to which knowledge cannot or must not be vulgarized, but only communicated to a few disciples. This knowledge is mainly concerning the spirituality, the occult and the magic. Or in other words: "The hidden content of a doctrine, teaching, or any given thing". I recently got Elements in DVD and when I saw Islands' videos again I couldn't believe my eyes...check The Wind Chimes II video and bear in mind what follows. The Wind Chimes II starts with the image of a TREE. I related this to the TREE OF LIFE which in a word represents God. To help us understand the importance of the Tree of Life, a story can be told that characterizes the struggle between light and darkness: Light is order, the cosmic laws of creation, while darkness is chaos and death (Mike's Light + Shade?) Something remarkable to see from minute 6:00 on was that sculptured woman (main image in the video) which reminded me of the forgotten GODESS in Dan Brown's DaVinci's Code. Remember that since the dawn of civilization, the Godess was worshiped around the world and later replaced by a "he" God. She was connected to Isis/Sirius star (see "The Time Has Come" video in which also Osiris apppears sat in a throne in Annita Hegerland's face) and to Mary Magdalene who was Jesus wife? In minute 8:00 we can see the Sun and Mike's hand playing the guitar. Note how that Sun turns into an EYE, another symbol of GOD. In minute 12:55  we see Taurus Constellation (perhaps because Mike's star sign is Taurus?) and a KEY. Maybe Mike wants to show us that he's the key to... something? In minute 14:34  we see some fish swimming around a river. The fish were also a symbol of Jesus-Christ and the Merovingian's descendants. In minute 18:30 there is a GATE-Godess relation (could it be The Gate in Light + Shade?) and finally from minute 21:21 the Sun, symbol of Christ. All in all, it seems to me that this a tribute to Her, to women in general and to the relationship between humans and God/Godess. Back to top

SentinelGard Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: June 2003 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 00:05 WOW.. very well thought out ... -------------- "Onwards & Upwards'" Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 00:22 Quote (SentinelGard @ Jan. 31 2006, 00:05) WOW.. very well thought out ... Thanks SentinelGard! Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 04:10 I think you found some trees and missed the forest. These symbols are so deeply embedded in the human psyche that they turn up again and again in all kinds of (apparently) unlikely places. The idea of the sacred tree seems to be an image related to shamanic experience of the 'omphalos' - the centre through which the shaman can travel up or down between the levels of reality - and it turns up everywhere: in germanic mythology, for instance, when Wotan hangs himself from the tree; in Christianity (cross/tree); Jacob's dream of a heavenly ladder; and so on. Similarly the sun symbols and the goddess are archetypal in the same way. Their profundity lies there - in the fact that they underpin everything we do. Given the deep roots of Mike Oldfield's music in folk song, it's not at all surprising to find these symbols popping up. It would be more surprising if such images didn't occur in his work. The mistake lies in attempting to particularise it all - as you do here - which actually moves us further from the truth, not closer to it. Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 09:10 Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 31 2006, 04:10) I think you found some trees and missed the forest. These symbols are so deeply embedded in the human psyche that they turn up again and again in all kinds of (apparently) unlikely places. The idea of the sacred tree seems to be an image related to shamanic experience of the 'omphalos' - the centre through which the shaman can travel up or down between the levels of reality - and it turns up everywhere: in germanic mythology, for instance, when Wotan hangs himself from the tree; in Christianity (cross/tree); Jacob's dream of a heavenly ladder; and so on. Similarly the sun symbols and the goddess are archetypal in the same way. Their profundity lies there - in the fact that they underpin everything we do. Given the deep roots of Mike Oldfield's music in folk song, it's not at all surprising to find these symbols popping up. It would be more surprising if such images didn't occur in his work. The mistake lies in attempting to particularise it all - as you do here - which actually moves us further from the truth, not closer to it. You just got to be open minded, that's all it takes. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 10:49 Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 14:10) You just got to be open minded, that's all it takes. No, no, that isn't it at all. In this area I can't have anything but an open mind - the whole area of symbolism, archetypes, and the deep rootedness of these in the human psyche constitutes a great mystery that one simply must be open minded about. These are the things that give us profound senses of meaning in ways that our rational thinking is hardly aware of. My point is that what you've noticed really does have something profound at the root of it (by the way, you do need to have an open mind to see that), but you missed the part that really matters, and scooted off down a side alley that actually takes you way off course. Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 11:04 Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 31 2006, 10:49) Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 14:10) You just got to be open minded, that's all it takes. No, no, that isn't it at all. In this area I can't have anything but an open mind - the whole area of symbolism, archetypes, and the deep rootedness of these in the human psyche constitutes a great mystery that one simply must be open minded about. These are the things that give us profound senses of meaning in ways that our rational thinking is hardly aware of. My point is that what you've noticed really does have something profound at the root of it (by the way, you do need to have an open mind to see that), but you missed the part that really matters, and scooted off down a side alley that actually takes you way off course. which part, in your opinion, really matters? Actually you should see it as a whole, since EVERYTHING is connected to symbolism and Mike is very aware that this video was going to be a milestone when people would "open" their eyes, sooner or later. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 11:24 Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 16:04) Actually you should see it as a whole, since EVERYTHING is connected to symbolism But that's what I was saying. My criticism of your interpretation is that you didn't see this as part of a great whole, but went off down a track that started analysing the details in the same kind of way as people have tried to find hidden meanings in the measurements of the Great Pyramid. I've already indicated 'the part that really matters': the symbols are present in Mike's work not because he's trying to convey some esoteric hidden message, but because he's a great artist. And all great artists reach inside themselves and reinterpret and represent these symbols in their work. That's why their work is so healing and energising. To treat such work as a kind of Da Vinci code puzzle is to trivialise it. Archetypal symbols have no fixed, literal interpretation. Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 12:05 Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 31 2006, 11:24) Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 16:04) Actually you should see it as a whole, since EVERYTHING is connected to symbolism But that's what I was saying. My criticism of your interpretation is that you didn't see this as part of a great whole, but went off down a track that started analysing the details in the same kind of way as people have tried to find hidden meanings in the measurements of the Great Pyramid. I've already indicated 'the part that really matters': the symbols are present in Mike's work not because he's trying to convey some esoteric hidden message, but because he's a great artist. And all great artists reach inside themselves and reinterpret and represent these symbols in their work. That's why their work is so healing and energising. To treat such work as a kind of Da Vinci code puzzle is to trivialise it. Archetypal symbols have no fixed, literal interpretation. Ok, I respect your opinion and there is no doubt that Mike is a great artist (perhaps the best! and as being so why wouldn't he relate his art to esoteric-symbolism-God? Besides, he's remarked that spiritualism is very important in his life. Such examples can be found in "Our Father", Angelique, Return to the Origin, Thou Art in Heaven, The Earth Spirit, Rebirth Tunnel, Mastermind, Pacha Mama and so on...   Profound and meaninful. Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 15:22 Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 17:05) Mike is a great artist (perhaps the best! and as being so why wouldn't he relate his art to esoteric-symbolism-God? Besides, he's remarked that spiritualism is very important in his life. Such examples can be found in "Our Father", Angelique, Return to the Origin, Thou Art in Heaven, The Earth Spirit, Rebirth Tunnel, Mastermind, Pacha Mama and so on...   Profound and meaninful. Well, I agree with all that you say there. I think those pieces contain a mixture of conscious and unconscious use of symbolic imagery (though not all equally successfully, perhaps). But that doesn't mean that there's some occult 'hidden message' in his work, which can be 'discovered' by approaching his music as if a set of mysterious puzzles have been planted in it. Using that kind of technique you can 'discover' virtually anything you want (which fact entirely devalues the method). Although it's an exciting and imaginative read (despite being badly written) The Da Vinci Code has a lot to answer for, I think! Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 15:56 I think there is more to be said for looking for a code in the actual music instead of the names of tracks. After all, at times the track names certainly haven't been important to him. His first few albums didn't even have any. Isn't that where the creative energy of Mike Oldfied is focused? In the composition and playing of the music, rather than the names? -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

Alan D Group: Members Posts: 3670 Joined: Aug. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 17:03 Quote (hiawatha @ Jan. 31 2006, 20:56) I think there is more to be said for looking for a code in the actual music instead of the names of tracks. I think it's a waste of time looking for a code at all. (Recognising the recurrence of symbols is another matter.) Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 17:07 Quote (Alan D @ Jan. 31 2006, 15:22) Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 17:05) Mike is a great artist (perhaps the best! and as being so why wouldn't he relate his art to esoteric-symbolism-God? Besides, he's remarked that spiritualism is very important in his life. Such examples can be found in "Our Father", Angelique, Return to the Origin, Thou Art in Heaven, The Earth Spirit, Rebirth Tunnel, Mastermind, Pacha Mama and so on...   Profound and meaninful. Well, I agree with all that you say there. I think those pieces contain a mixture of conscious and unconscious use of symbolic imagery (though not all equally successfully, perhaps). But that doesn't mean that there's some occult 'hidden message' in his work, which can be 'discovered' by approaching his music as if a set of mysterious puzzles have been planted in it. Using that kind of technique you can 'discover' virtually anything you want (which fact entirely devalues the method). Although it's an exciting and imaginative read (despite being badly written) The Da Vinci Code has a lot to answer for, I think! Why not? That's exactly what he wants us to do: "discover" the mysterious puzzles planted in his music, as you well mentioned. And regarding to the book, well written or badly written (of course Dan Brown doesn't care about that, he just fulfilled his objective) many of the mysteries concerning to Mary Magdalene and Christ are being reveled after 2.000 years of censorshp and banned texts (Nag Hammadi library and Dead Sea Scrolls). Not only that, the Church (since the Roman Emperor Constantine I) took advantage of Christ for political/religious purposes, and in that way the Godess was forgotten, meanwhile the feminine role has been dealing with that up to these days. Not that I'm a feminist or anything like it. For more information see: http://www.meta-religion.com/World_R....ary.htm http://www.meta-religion.com/World_R....lls.htm Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 17:22 Quote (hiawatha @ Jan. 31 2006, 15:56) Isn't that where the creative energy of Mike Oldfied is focused? In the composition and playing of the music, rather than the names? Are you a 100 % sure about that? Did "Mike" tell no to take into account names? why would he name a composition "Our Father" without any reason at all? Both name, music and images have a reason why, from Tubular Bells to Light+ Shade. Remit to http://tubular.net/forums....;t=5906 to see the meaning of Tubular Bells and Light + Shade. Back to top

moonchildhippy Group: Members Posts: 1807 Joined: Dec. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 18:55 Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 22:07) Not only that, the Church (since the Roman Emperor Constantine I) took advantage of Christ for political/religious purposes, and in that way the Godess was forgotten, meanwhile the feminine role has been dealing with that up to these days. Not that I'm a feminist or anything like it. Yes this DaVinci Code is a thought provoking topic, could turn Christianity as we know it upon it's head.  I agree that the Godess as a deity has been forgotten, since the rise of patriahcal religions, and women still have a way to go to achieve a more level playing field.  Being a feminist doesn't have to mean you  have to belong to the sterotypical image of a feminist ie man hating, butch looking female. Anyway regarding Mikes music...   Quote Both name, music and images have a reason why, from Tubular Bells to Light+ Shade. . I thought Tubular Bells was so called as Viv Stanshall announced  the instruments and placed the emphasis on the "Tubular Bells"  .  Mike had hit the bells so hard they had bent, so he arrived at the album title and cover artwork.   I believe TB is one young man's pent up energy and emotions. Listen to the 1971 Demos of TB, so much raw energy there, (move over the Sex Pistols). Mike is a truly talented composer/mucisian:D, that's why his music appeals to me .   Take "Oribadoo"    does the word Oribadoo have any meaning or is it just a nonsense word? I think it's just nonsense.  Mike was an iconoclast, an innovator in that he broke the mould for rock music. The standard LP format was a series of 3-5 minute songs, punk bands seemed to take this step backwards in time, the three minute song was done years before punk.   Granted some bands broke that general rule, but  to simply name your pieces after the album title , let alone put any easily understandable lyrics to the music was unheard of. -------------- I'm going slightly mad, It finally happened, I'm slightly mad , just very slightly mad If you feel a little glum to Hergest Ridge you should come. I'm challenging  taboos surrounding mental health "Part time hippy" I'M SUPPORTING OUR SOLDIERS BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!! Back to top

Tati The Sentinel Group: Members Posts: 3360 Joined: Feb. 2002 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 19:06 Mike once said on a Dark Star interview that he doesn't like to be idolyzed as a saint. -------------- "But it's always the outsider, the black sheep, that becomes the blockbuster." - Mike Oldfield, 2014 "I remember feeling that I'd been judged unfairly and that I was going to prove them wrong." - Peter Davison, 2011 Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 19:13 Did you read my post mentioning the pseudo nonsence words in QE2 and Five Miles Out? Seems not!!! Ora-bi-do-o has to do with Hindu mantras. Remember the words: Watch the skys dawning on you Soaring over country land Message comes from Kathmandu Sky is blue and clear. For more information remit to http://tubular.net/forums....;t=5913 Back to top

hiawatha Group: Members Posts: 2391 Joined: Mar. 2004 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 19:58 Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 17:22) Quote (hiawatha @ Jan. 31 2006, 15:56) Isn't that where the creative energy of Mike Oldfied is focused? In the composition and playing of the music, rather than the names? Are you a 100 % sure about that? Did "Mike" tell no to take into account names? why would he name a composition "Our Father" without any reason at all? Both name, music and images have a reason why, from Tubular Bells to Light+ Shade. Remit to http://tubular.net/forums....;t=5906 to see the meaning of Tubular Bells and Light + Shade. The music means more than the names, Much more. If I was looking to buy the best CD/album just for the names of the tracks, I'd probably look at albums such as "Cords" by Synergy, rather than anything by Mike Oldfield. -------------- "In the land of the Dacotahs, Where the Falls of Minnehaha Flash and gleam among the oak-trees, Laugh and leap into the valley." - Song of Hiawatha Back to top

_ShiNe_ Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: Oct. 2005 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 20:05 Quote (hiawatha @ Jan. 31 2006, 19:58) Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 17:22) Quote (hiawatha @ Jan. 31 2006, 15:56) Isn't that where the creative energy of Mike Oldfied is focused? In the composition and playing of the music, rather than the names? Are you a 100 % sure about that? Did "Mike" tell no to take into account names? why would he name a composition "Our Father" without any reason at all? Both name, music and images have a reason why, from Tubular Bells to Light+ Shade. Remit to http://tubular.net/forums....;t=5906 to see the meaning of Tubular Bells and Light + Shade. The music means more than the names, Much more. If I was looking to buy the best CD/album just for the names of the tracks, I'd probably look at albums such as "Cords" by Synergy, rather than anything by Mike Oldfield. I'm NOT saying that music means more...or less than names, that's not the issue. Don't get confussed. I'm just saying that names, music and images do have a purpose/reason. Back to top

EeToN Group: Members Posts: 845 Joined: Sep. 2001 Posted: Jan. 31 2006, 22:02 Quote (_ShiNe_ @ Jan. 31 2006, 23:22) Did "Mike" tell no to take into account names? why would he name a composition "Our Father" without any reason at all? How does one come up with the name for an instrumental track? Well, it's a bit like the American Indians - when they have a child, the first thing they see is the given name. Someone was apparently called Two Dogs F***ing [laughs]. It's very similar. The first track on the album is called Misty - I have an Arabian filly called Misty and so there you are. 60 second interview, 2002 Regarding the titles of tracks on L+S, you can read about them in Mike's own description here. -------------- If I were music, I would be Enigmatism. Back to top

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