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bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: April 13 2013, 16:28 I came across this today, in a newspaper article on Beethoven.  It is written by Daniel Barenboim, the pianist and conductor, and for me it says exactly what I have wanted to say for a very long time. " Music means different things to different people and sometimes different things to the same person at different moments of his life.  It might be poetic, philosophical, sensual or mathematical, but in any case it must, in my view, have something to do with the soul of the human being.  Hence it is metaphysical; but the means of expression is purely and exclusively physical: sound.  I believe it is precisely this permanent coexistence of metaphysical message through physical means that is the strength of music.  It is also the reason why when we try to describe music with words, all we can do is articulate our reactions to it, and not grasp music itself. " Exactly. I also have a book of his on my shelf, as yet unread, but it is called 'Everything is Connected : The Power of Music' and the summary on the back says "The power of music lies in its ability to speak to all aspects of the human being - the animal, the emotional, the intellectual, and the spiritual.  Music teaches us, in short, that everything is connected." How very true.  Of everything. Looking forward to having some time when I can read this entire book.  I have a feeling it is going to be worthwhile. The thing about great composers is they know how to tap in to these aspects of humanity and create this perfect 'wholeness' in music.   If that isn't Mike Oldfield's Amarok then I'm a monkey's uncle All we have to do is listen. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1865 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: April 13 2013, 21:36 Just watched a Vangelis interview from 1981 a few days ago, where he says exactly the same thing. http://www.ina.fr/video/CAA8100773401 Music is more than emotion - you can program emotion. It's from the soul. Also he says it's sad, "fake" that music is a social thing, created and consumed socially, it's more biological and profound than that, and Eastern civilizations get that a little bit better than the West (jeesh did he listen to crappy Hong Kong music?!?). He says once we decode music we might understand what science cannot, because at one point we cannot find words, and then we find music. But then we try to explain music, with words, and it's a vicious circle. Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 14 2013, 09:17 I had never read Barenboim's views, and they match almost exactly with mine as well. I find that music is better understood and absorbed when it's seen as a wholesome, multi-faceted thing, and not as a merely "spiritual" or "emotional" thing. Emotions don't explain everything. And saying, for example, that "Music Is Math" (like that Boards of Canada track) does not exclude all the other aspects; only enhances them, showing that not only maths exist in emotions, but also vice versa. "Everything is connected" seems to be the best way to put it. I also think that talking about music, or describing it with words, is much more constructive than some people have it. Just listening to it ends up creating, I believe, a very sheltered and isolated experience; it's "you and the music", and that's not good. A person's frontiers can only be truly broken when he connects with other people; and, so far, the most effective way to do that is with words. Many of my concepts and beliefs regarding music came from other people's thoughts, and not only from their music. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

Olivier Group: Super Admins Posts: 1865 Joined: Nov. 1999 Posted: April 14 2013, 12:19 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 14 2013, 06:17) Many of my concepts and beliefs regarding music came from other people's thoughts, and not only from their music. In this interview, Vangelis says this is "fake", that music comes before humans, the whole social thing about it is fake. So that's why for him it's important not to know what you're going to play, not to have any references. To him music is about decisions (soul), not emotions (smart computers). He didn't mention bands, playing together, that would have been interesting. On the other end of the spectrum, Steve Jobs who was saying about creativity: "expose ourselves to the best things that humans have done". The truth is probably in the middle as usual. But I think Vangelis point is to say that music is different than other things we consume, it's the most profound thing. But by explaining that he falls into the vicious circle of using words to explain music. Not sure I believe him but it's interesting. Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1759 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: April 14 2013, 13:47 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 14 2013, 09:17) A person's frontiers can only be truly broken when he connects with other people; Perhaps that's true, but then does originality and creativity come from people's frontiers becoming broken? And personally I think meetings, collabborations and cross-pollinations are grossly overrated. According to the current academic paradigm that is how good art is born, but I'm not so sure. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

bee Group: Members Posts: 1227 Joined: Jan. 2004 Posted: April 14 2013, 13:49 I think that is true about music being profound...we try and explain it but run out of words, then just end up listening...which is kind of the point in the first place. Music, we could say, has the final word. As social beings (generally) we feel the need to share experiences or maybe even try and influence others and that's one of the things that holds us together as a community.  I think it is good we do so, and agree it's a far more healthy way to be...if possible. One of the reasons this forum keeps going is perhaps the discussions that take place. As for where music comes from, I like the idea of it being here before anything else, in the soul...perhaps we reawaken something we know deep inside when we listen or create/compose music. What we have is a sense of recognition when we hear it. A kind of coming home. -------------- ....second to the right and straight on till morning.... You heard me before Yet you hear me again Then I die Till I call me again Back to top

Sir Mustapha Group: Musicians Posts: 2802 Joined: April 2003 Posted: April 14 2013, 20:06 Quote (Olivier @ April 14 2013, 12:19) The truth is probably in the middle as usual. But I think Vangelis point is to say that music is different than other things we consume, it's the most profound thing. But by explaining that he falls into the vicious circle of using words to explain music. Not sure I believe him but it's interesting. Vangelis for me is the kind of guy who can say whatever the hell he feels like and I'll still be a fan, because his music speaks for itself. Kind of like Keith Jarrett and his hatred for electric instruments; I think it's full of shit, but his music is great so I don't mind. Quote Perhaps that's true, but then does originality and creativity come from people's frontiers becoming broken? Makes sense to me. It's pretty hard to try to do something different if you don't know what's being done, in the first place. It's hard to draw a pink elephant if you haven't drawn a regular grey one. But honestly, with every passing day, the more I'm convinced that "originality" is a completely bogus concept, a fake quality fully fabricated by a greedy, hungry industry that thrives from copyright and intellectual ownership. For hundreds of years it was absolutely alright for artists to copy each other. Musicians constantly borrowed material, built on other people's ideas, made direct quotations and variations. Writers and playwrights told the same damn stories over and over again, and many of  our "classic" works were essentially fanfiction of older works. People were concerned with the how more than the what. And I'm starting to be like that too: give me the tried and true, as long as it's done well, and not the "fresh and new" that's actually a pile of crap. -------------- Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds. Also check my Bandcamp page: http://ferniecanto.bandcamp.com Back to top

larstangmark Group: Members Posts: 1759 Joined: Mar. 2005 Posted: April 15 2013, 14:44 Quote (Sir Mustapha @ April 14 2013, 20:06) But honestly, with every passing day, the more I'm convinced that "originality" is a completely bogus concept, a fake quality fully fabricated by a greedy, hungry industry that thrives from copyright and intellectual ownership. For hundreds of years it was absolutely alright for artists to copy each other. Musicians constantly borrowed material, built on other people's ideas, made direct quotations and variations. Writers and playwrights told the same damn stories over and over again, and many of  our "classic" works were essentially fanfiction of older works. People were concerned with the how more than the what. And I'm starting to be like that too: give me the tried and true, as long as it's done well, and not the "fresh and new" that's actually a pile of crap. Oral tradition meant people learnt plays or songs from eachother. That was the reality of the good old days. Instant acccess to millions of original compositions on your computer and a virtual recording studio in your living room changes the conditions drastically. And for god's sake NEVER buy anything that makes claim on "originality". Most likely it's neo-prog like Mars Volta or Spock's Beard. -------------- "There are twelve people in the world, the rest are paste" Mark E Smith Back to top

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