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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: Sep. 01 2008, 14:55

I've been appreciating this song a lot more, lately. I looked for the lyrics through the main site, but there aren't any listed for QE2. Is this a case of "Sheba"-esque vocal nonsense?

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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Taurus 4 Offline




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Posted: Sep. 01 2008, 16:25

Lovely harmonies, Barretty piano, exultant guitar. I like it a lot.
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Ugo Offline




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Posted: Sep. 01 2008, 16:52

"Celt" lyrics? Ah, the As Far Wrengo Delta thing. :D If you don't know what I'm talking about, take a look here.

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Ugo C. - a devoted Amarokian
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Sep. 01 2008, 21:02

Yes, this is one of my all-time MO favourites. Its guitar "solo" must be one of the most joyous and transcendent things he's ever written.
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: Sep. 02 2008, 04:11

I don`t know what it is about Celt exactly but I`ve never really connected with it somehow?I agree about the Guitar solo though great stuff.It`s just that my problem is because I`m not particularly fond of the rest of the track it just kind of comes as a welcome relief to me unfortunatly.But yeah I can`t quite put my finger on what it is for me?I know it`s quite sparse instrument wise for a Mike Oldfield piece.But I just tend to find that rhythmical drum pattern a little laboured and off putting somehow.I really hate to say this but I think I prefered the "burundi" drumming of Bow Wow Wow or Adam & The Ants.And believe you me I absolutely loathed Adam and his bloody Ants.Anyway as a former drummer myself I was no Ginger Baker so what the hell do I know?

Actualy I blame a lot of it on all the cheapo record decks I`ve owned down the years.I always thought that when I finally bought this album on CD it would somehow magicaly all fall into place for me.So maybe I was expecting too much of a turnaround all those years later I don`t really know?Nothing to do with the nonsense singing though because I`ve always loved Sheba..Even listening on my crappy old wind up gramaphone it sounded awesome.Hats off to Phil Collins I say.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Sep. 02 2008, 06:54

I've come to conclude that the problem with Celt is the pedestrian melody. The arrangement and instrumentation are really good, but the melody itself - especially when compared to what came before it - sounds like a bunch o' fluff and nothing. The result is that the whole track comes across as overproduced filler. But I agree on the guitar solo; it's indeed impressive.

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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Sep. 02 2008, 20:02

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 02 2008, 06:54)
I've come to conclude that the problem with Celt is the pedestrian melody. The arrangement and instrumentation are really good, but the melody itself - especially when compared to what came before it - sounds like a bunch o' fluff and nothing. The result is that the whole track comes across as overproduced filler. But I agree on the guitar solo; it's indeed impressive.

It's a simple melody, true, but the question is: does "simple" necessarily have to equal "pedestrian"? Perhaps, as Dirk seemed to imply, the simple, "ground-based" melody serves to emphasize the stratospheric quality of the guitar solo, which, of course, is an extremely complex melody. (Does anyone know whether Mike reproduces it note for note in live performance?)
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Sep. 02 2008, 21:13

Quote (nightspore @ Sep. 02 2008, 20:02)
It's a simple melody, true, but the question is: does "simple" necessarily have to equal "pedestrian"?

Not at all. I find the melody of Celt simple, AND incidentally pedestrian. Amarok has a handful of themes that are very simple, AND as close to "transcendental" as I can possibly fathom.

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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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The Caveman Offline




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Posted: Sep. 03 2008, 02:53

I think it's really nice little peice.Very very simple with very sparse instrumentation but that solo is awesome!If what ever re-produced live and there is a copy anywhere i want it!
 And straight after that is what's probably the simplest ever Oldfield peice Molly.Now that's simple.


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THE COMING OF THE GREAT WHITE HANDKERCHEIF IS NIGH.
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: Sep. 03 2008, 04:10

Quote (nightspore @ Sep. 03 2008, 01:02)
Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 02 2008, 06:54)
I've come to conclude that the problem with Celt is the pedestrian melody. The arrangement and instrumentation are really good, but the melody itself - especially when compared to what came before it - sounds like a bunch o' fluff and nothing. The result is that the whole track comes across as overproduced filler. But I agree on the guitar solo; it's indeed impressive.

It's a simple melody, true, but the question is: does "simple" necessarily have to equal "pedestrian"? Perhaps, as Dirk seemed to imply, the simple, "ground-based" melody serves to emphasize the stratospheric quality of the guitar solo, which, of course, is an extremely complex melody. (Does anyone know whether Mike reproduces it note for note in live performance?)

Well there a lot of things about Celt that I do like you know I personaly think the main melody is quite emotive myself.Almost yearning to me.And then like you say the guitar solo is very joyous but somehow quite tearful at the same time.It`s kind of that acknowledgement in a way that makes me want to appreciate it more if you like.It`s just that like I said earlier it does`nt really happen for me somehow.Which for myself at least is probably more down to arrangement than anything else.Although Sir M` point about it having to follow QE2 may have something of a bearing on that as well I must admit.

There`s a song by Paul McCartney from the early 90`s entitled I Owe It All To You which until recently I was never really a big fan of.Musicaly I always felt it was a very sad song you know especialy coupled with his own vocal delivery on it I guess.And then it just seemed to me to be completely at odds with the lyrics on it which are all kind of huge overblown metaphors for loving somebody.."Egyptian Temples,Glass Cathedrals,Golden Canyons etc etc"..You know you name it and it`s bloody well in there..  :p But yeah I just did`nt "get it" at all.I was`nt even close in fact I`m really slow on the uptake with these things sometimes I must admit.Although personaly I blame a lot of that on the fact that Macca just tends to write any old nonsense sometimes and I often dismiss his lyrics out of hand.Even though I do think he can be very astute and perceptive sometimes.Probably when he`s not even aware he`s being as such if you like.But anyway I listened to this song just a few weeks ago and it suddenly struck me what the hell the song was about and I`d just missed the whole point of it entirely.Such was the great joy and wonder he was trying to convey in the song he was actualy overcome by the sheer emotion of it all.That`s what that glorious guitar solo from Celt represents for me I think.And it`s also why I think it works perfectly coupled with the main melody of Mike`s song here.I just don`t like the drumming on it I`m sorry.
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: Sep. 04 2008, 16:29

Taurus 4, I'm unfamiliar with "Barretty" - can you explain what it means?

Ugo, thanks for the link. I usually have a high tolerance for nonsense, but seeing the 'words' for "Sheba" and "Celt", side by side, gave me a headache. On that same page, I was wondering why the lyrics to "Incantations Part 1" were presented phonetically? I mean, "Diana, Luna, Lucina" is pretty straightforward.

Strangely, nightspore, I hadn't consciously paid much attention to the guitar part but you're right - it is quite something.

I may be an 80s' gal, Dirk, but Bow Wow Wow and Adam & The Ants? Yeah... no. Still, I agree that the drumming sounds a bit off, somehow.

Sir M, I take a different view - if anything needed improvement, I'd say it was either the arrangement (see above concerning drums) or the performance (again - drums), as I think the melody - while simple - is quite nice in itself and provides a good balance to the more aggressive guitar part. It would be interesting to hear this song sans percussion and with the vocal line taken up by, say, a violin.

Caveman, I just listened to "Molly" again and, you're right, it is very simple - but also very charming, I think. To be honest, I'd kinda neglected that piece, before. Thanks for making me revisit it.

Dirk, it must be the drumming that doesn't work for me, as well. I guess it's similar to how I have a hard time with the vocalists on some of MO's 80s songs.


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Sep. 04 2008, 20:07

Quote (Sweetpea @ Sep. 04 2008, 16:29)
I think the melody - while simple - is quite nice in itself and provides a good balance to the more aggressive guitar part.

Yes, Mike is a master when it comes to contrast. The guitar section doesn't come across to me as aggressive, though - it expresses pure joy (like the instrumental part of "Into Wonderland", if I may be allowed to digress a bit).
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2008, 01:57

Quote (nightspore @ Sep. 04 2008, 20:07)
The guitar section doesn't come across to me as aggressive, though - it expresses pure joy

I wasn't happy with my word choice, either. Perhaps, "busy" would have been better - again, speaking comparatively.


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2008, 05:52

[quote=Sweetpea,Sep. 04 2008, 21:29][/quote]
Quote
I may be an 80s' gal, Dirk, but Bow Wow Wow and Adam & The Ants? Yeah... no. Still, I agree that the drumming sounds a bit off, somehow.


Well I felt I`d been a little bit dismissive of the main melody in my initial post so I thought I`d give Celt a renewed listen if you like.Anyway as soon as the drums started up I actualy laughed out loud in a kind of "OMG they`re even worse than I remember" sort of way.I`m pleased to learn it`s not just me anyway.You know I`d love to think that it`s just me not being able to get my head around that drum pattern.But with all due respect to Mike Frye I do have a sneaking suspicion that his actual playing on this track may well be a little bit rubbish.What can I say?...I`m a bloody cloth eared nincomwotsit.

Incidentaly I have read elsewhere on this forum that the main melody of Celt was also used by Mike as part of the organ melody on Ambient Guitars. Original post here. Well I have had a quick listen and it`s not something I`ve really been able to pick out I must admit.It`s not mentioned in the referance guide either in case anyone wants to have a gander.So yeah possibly another "cloth-eared moment" there on my part I don`t know?
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2008, 08:38

The only similarity I see between the two pieces is the chord progression (I - IV - V - I), which has been used about a trillion times in about a billion songs, so I can't see why Mike would have "stolen" It from Tubular Bells - or from anywhere else, for that matter.

By the way, regarding the "drum" sound on that song - or on the whole album, for that matter - is the biggest problem with the actual playing, or just with the sound of the drums? I ask that because several tracks have that "drum" sound that sounds like someone's drumming his hands on pillows, or something, which is what may be the reason for the annoyance. It somewhat bothers me too, but I don't mind that sound much as the compositions themselves are great (case in point: Taurus 1, Conflict). But Celt to me sounds definitely quite lacklustre, and I'm sure it's not just about the drums.


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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2008, 20:23

The basic melody is a very insistent one, simply because it is simple and it is constantly repeated. It's an ominous melody, too, because it's a gradually descending one. Putting these two facts together you get an impression of unavoidable doom. But then the transcendent guitar phrase kicks in, and it's as though some marvelous freedom has been obtained. Perhaps there's an autobiographical quality to it, given that the Exegesis business was not too distant in the past.
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Dirk Star Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2008, 22:14

Quote (Sir Mustapha @ Sep. 05 2008, 13:38)
The only similarity I see between the two pieces is the chord progression (I - IV - V - I), which has been used about a trillion times in about a billion songs, so I can't see why Mike would have "stolen" It from Tubular Bells - or from anywhere else, for that matter.

By the way, regarding the "drum" sound on that song - or on the whole album, for that matter - is the biggest problem with the actual playing, or just with the sound of the drums? I ask that because several tracks have that "drum" sound that sounds like someone's drumming his hands on pillows, or something, which is what may be the reason for the annoyance. It somewhat bothers me too, but I don't mind that sound much as the compositions themselves are great (case in point: Taurus 1, Conflict). But Celt to me sounds definitely quite lacklustre, and I'm sure it's not just about the drums.

Well the sound of those particular (African) drums, or just the way they were actualy recorded is`nt something I`m really enamoured with I`d agree with you there.On Taurus 1/Sheba they maybe don`t sound as bad to me but Conflict is pretty similar no doubt.Plus also do they need to be that high up in the mix kind of right in your face almost?And they just sound so clinicaly recorded to me.You know could we not have had a little bit of reverb on there?Or some sort of filtering/distortion anything I guess just to try and liven them up a bit!?.Anything that is apart from panning from speaker to speaker which just attracts your bloody attention to them more of course.

I don`t know it`s not your everyday kind of drum pattern I`ll admit.So coupled with the whole "sound" issue I`m possibly doing poor old Mike Frye something of a dis-service there.There`s just something about Celt in particular that sounds really laboured to me,like he just was`nt "into it" at all.In fairness to him I don`t think there`s an awful lot else going on in the track for him to work around.But then on the other hand the drums are that "busy" anyway they don`t really leave much space for anything else.And almost out of an awareness of that he keeps "doubling up" here and there  and adding a few extra little "finger drums" every now and then just to mix it up a bit.You know if I`d have been David Hentschel behind that glass window I would`ve been like "Whoah whoah what the hell`s going on here man..I`ve got a tape loop of a fridge falling down a staircase that would sound better than that".

It`s a strange thing because QE2 is one of my favourites if not THE favourite of Mike`s 80`s albums.But for me with all due respect to him at trying new and different things etc.There are parts of the album that are just a stylistic trainwreck I think.And unfortunatly for me at least Celt is kind of the epitomy of that if you like.Which is a shame because I do think there is enough about the song for it to have been so much better.
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Sweetpea Offline




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Posted: Sep. 05 2008, 23:51

Quote (Dirk Star @ Sep. 05 2008, 22:14)
...if I`d have been David Hentschel behind that glass window I would`ve been like "Whoah whoah what the hell`s going on here man..I`ve got a tape loop of a fridge falling down a staircase that would sound better than that".

:laugh:  That made me lol fur realz.

Poor "Celt" isn't feeling the love. I keep replaying it while thinking 'Is it really that bad??'. And though I'm still of two minds, I'm still quite liking it.


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"I'm no physicist, but technically couldn't Mike both be with the horse and be flying through space at the same time? (On account of the earth's orbit around the Sun and all that). So it seems he never had to make the choice after all. I bet he's kicking himself now." - clotty
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nightspore Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 05:22

Quote (Sweetpea @ Sep. 05 2008, 23:51)
Poor "Celt" isn't feeling the love. I keep replaying it while thinking 'Is it really that bad??'.

No, Sweetpea, it isn't bad at all. In fact it's a terrific piece - one of Mike's best.
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Sir Mustapha Offline




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Posted: Sep. 06 2008, 09:38

To soften the negativity a bit, I'll say that I don't think it's a rigorously bad song at all (in the sense that, for example, The Inner Child to me is in all respects a rigorously bad song), and it comes across as a bit of semi-pleasant filler in an album that presented more than enough reasons to exist. I just never look forwards to the song, and it almost ends up sounding like a preamble to the pretty, calming Molly. Really!

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Check out http://ferniecanto.com.br for all my music, including my latest albums: Don't Stay in the City, Making Amends and Builders of Worlds.
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